Warning: According to my Blog Advisory System, this post is rated RED for The Touchiest of All Touchy Subjects. I wrote it last week but did not have the heart to publish it because I was worried about losing readership. In the end though, I have got to do what feels right by me and I apologize if when you get to the end you are like, WTF? I did not sign up for this!
My 8-year-old, Mr. Monk, cried during his Religious Class last Saturday because he wanted to attend Mass and his parents, we, have not managed to take him on a regular basis.
Mr. Monk, unlike his elder brother, is prone to taking things 100% and to the extreme. He takes everything that people say in, personally and seriously. He obeys authority figures (his parents not included, alas) with a fervor: whatever they say, you have to follow. He had already come home crying before that because the priest had told them, “Your parents promised to bring you up Catholic and they have to bring you to Mass every week.” Because that’s not how we operate in this household, he has been really troubled. The other shoe has dropped. This twice-a-year-Catholic thing is not going to work for him.
He really wants to BELIEVE, and there is no compromise. He seems to have a hard time understanding “grey areas”. To be 100% honest with myself, I’m worried. Now that Mr. Monk is convinced this is the right way (because OTHERWISE why would we, his parents, send him to RE every Saturday morning?!), he perceives my being a non-Christian as an anomaly. He brings up my being non-Christian more often than I am comfortable with since ideally, I would have liked it to be a non-issue, the way it has been with his older brother.
I do not agree with everything the Catholic Church has to teach and I am not sure about the whole “Immaculate Conception” thing (and I will simply leave it here). Out of respect for my spouse, I do not discuss Jesus with our kids. The old testament part, however, I have no problem discussing it with them, myself being an English Lit major in my youth and all.
I wish, with all due respect to my marriage, that I had given more thoughts to this whole Interfaith thing before I said yes. I did not expect it to be so complicated since I am agnostic; I had expected it to be conflict-free since, heck, I believe in every god, deity, fairy, spirit there is. Growing up in a Chinese society, I was immersed subtly and not so subtly in Buddhist and Taoist teachings and beliefs. The concept of Karma has been driven into my subconsciousness since day one. More importantly, there is no judgement passed. No concept of Sin. No concept of Grace. No threats of going to hell for non-believers.
Back to the story about last Saturday… After RE, the Catechist, Mrs. G (G being curiously a common German Jewish surname) told me, “I could tell that he was trying to be brave, but he was crying and said that he didn’t go to Mass… but he wanted to…” Because in my previous email communications with Mrs. G I had told her how much I appreciate her openness and how she made me want to bring the kids to Mass even if I have to do it by myself (since my husband travels a lot), she gently pointed out, “This is great and just gives you more incentive to bring him to Mass!”
We ended up talking about Interfaith families and how I didn’t realize it’s going to be more complicated than I have expected. I stopped short of telling her I am uncomfortable with the Church because of the whole anti-gay, anti-abortion stance. I simply asked her, “The church. This church. The sermons are not too ‘radical’ right?” She got what I was trying to ask, and she wrote me an email:
I’m obsessing about our conversation (I do that sometimes!)… God makes everyone perfect in His eyes. I can only tell you that the Catholic Church does not teach that they are damned or bad. They see all people as sinners in need of God’s forgivenss, so really we are all in the same boat… Mass is not a time where anyone delves into the “tough” topics like, homosexuality, divorce, politics, etc. It is a time for worship and praise of God. It is a time to come together as a group of people from all different backgrounds, circumstances, and “sin” status (Ha!). There will be no finger pointing. No one will look at you and say, “Clearly, she doesn’t know what the heck’s going on.” You don’t have to pretend to, so don’t worry! Your boys will help out. They’re wonderful people because YOU care so much about their development. Religious or not, you are bringing them up in the right moral way. You are sharing and showing the love that God has for each and every one of us… yes, you too! God loves agnostics too!
I fell in love with Mrs. G right then and there, despite her being a devout Catholic, and I decided to take the kids to the Mass at 5 o’clock that day.
THIS I could deal with, I thought to myself.
If all Christians were open to a calm discussion with open stance the way Mrs. G is, I could stop worrying about this whole Interfaith thing. Maybe they are. Maybe it is not as complicated as I thought. Maybe it is just me.
Unfortunately for me and for my sanity… at the end of the Liturgy, the second Intercession offered by the Deacon was “Let’s pray that the anti-abortion law will be upheld, they are fighting for it in D.C. right now, that we will continue to uphold the sanctity of life.”
I was completely caught off guard and could not believe my ears. Did he really say the “A” word when there were so many children present? I am not the sheltering kind of parents but I certainly do not wish to have to explain to my young children what abortion is. I was also utterly confused because of the “anti-abortion law” that he mentioned. As far as I know, Roe vs. Wade still stands. Did I miss something? Was I caught in some twilight zone?
When I went home, I realized I was an idiot because that day, January 22, marked the 38th anniversary of the Supreme Court’s Roe vs. Wade decision, and two days before that John Boehner introduced the “No Taxpayer Funding for Abortion Act” that would codify the Hyde Amendment by permanently prohibiting taxpayer funding of abortion across all federal programs.
And yes, I believe, this is the touchiest of all touchy subjects that will convince many Christians to vote against Democrats no matter who is running for Prez on the GOP ticket in 2012. This country’s future is going to be fought over the right to our wombs. Imagine that.
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I am so friggin' confused myself!
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I made this Venn Diagram for a post more than a year ago and, I have to admit, I am still as confused as ever. Back to Square One. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.
My husband and I are both atheists, and that definitely works. It’s our non-belief that brought us together. He told me, though, that if I were religious, he probably wouldn’t plan a future with me, even though he loves me very much. He said it just wouldn’t work. I took offense, since I believe that given how much I love him, I probably wouldn’t let religion get in the way if we didn’t have the same beliefs (or non-belief). But as I read your post, I realized that I probably shouldn’t have taken offense at what he told me. It is right to take into account, when deciding if you want to get married, the fact that your partner has a different, opposite belief system from yours, especially when kids enter the picture. How will you raise the kids? What will you tell them? Does one of you simply have to shut up and let the other’s belief (or non-belief) dominate the household?
I can understand your hesitation to post this. I have written very few posts about being an atheist, and before hitting the Publish button every time, I stop and ask myself, “Should I post this? Will anybody be offended?” I don’t think your post will offend anyone, it’s very respectful and diplomatic. But yes, issues like religion, abortion, and race, among other things, are very touchy subjects.
Thanks for your comments on my posts, btw. I really appreciate them! 🙂
The Reason You Come recently posted…Domestic Bliss and then some
Thank you for your kind and encouraging words.
Do you know Jesse Bering? He has a column at Scientific American, and he just published a book called “The God Instinct”. Here is an excerpt and I think you’ll appreciate it.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=god-may-work-in-mysterious-waysbut-2011-01-27
I have the book sitting on my bookshelf from before Christmas… I really need to start reading it.
It should be red for a “very interesting and thought provoking post”! Now why would you lose readers over that… .
I’m a foreigner, and I have a heavily media-colored image of America, so keep that in mind… but this is one of those contradictory things about the USA for me. It’s the land of hope, glory, and freedom – but strangely it is not the state that dictates the borders of freedom (state interference in any subject is rejected plain and square it seems), but rather God. Separation of Religion and State exists on paper only.
Frankly, if your husband wants your children to be brought up religiously (read, christian), I think HE should be the one driving them around to wherever it is they need to be as often as he can – but that’s a whole different discussion and I’m probably being too European :). I realize it must be hard to make the whole interfaith-thing work, but I think you have a chance here, as an agnost and a parent, to show mr. Monk that there are other, valid ways of leading a good life. Explain why you are not a christian. It may be hard for a kid, but he’s got questions and he deserves answers, correct, honest answers – half-truths and evasion will only convince him the church has it right. He may not understand everything now, but he will later. Because mrs. G may seem open-minded enough, but that doesn’t mean the whole congregation thinks like her. And again this might be too European, but if they can talk about abortion in church in front of the kids (you can’t show boobs on primetime or say “thank god for making me an atheist” when kids are watching, but apparently abortion can be discussed), so can you. So should you. Explain, again, where your point of view differs, why. If you’re gonna let THEM explain, you know what he’ll hear.
So basically, I’m just seconding Nance :).
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I actually have no problem with the kids growing up Christian. We talked about this before we got married, and we both agreed that seeing how there is no embedded moral upbringing within the American culture (as opposed to say Karma in a Chinese society), we wanted our kids to have a belief system, and Christianity became a convenient choice/substitute. I was all hoping for the “It takes a village” thing. An idealized perception of a Christian congregation. I was in this country for three years then. I did not realize how judgey, etc etc it is as a religion since in Buddhism (and the hodge podge that is in Taiwan), there is no concept that you HAVE to be a believer in order to be saved. You just need to be a good person. And being gay, for example, has nothing to do with whether one is a good person or not….
I’m glad you posted this.
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Thank you. This means a lot.
You already know I signed on for just this sort of post. Mrs. G, bless her, is clearly not tuned in to the real message of your church. Because it matters what is preached from the pulpit. And if what is being preached is anti-choice, how could you not find blood starting to seep from your temples? My kids both count themselves as atheists in spite of their time in Episcopal church and Quaker meeting. I believe for myself that it is most important how you live, and that should include genuine love and tolerance and compassion. And not condemnation of others for their sexual orientation or for wanting the simple basic civil right to govern their own bodies. The Catholic church may have those who are more liberal, but the official policy is that women are not equal. That’s a destructive belief for girls, but also for boys.
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I sometimes wonder WHY? WHY does it have to be Catholic? You know why? Because my MIL is Catholic, and he’s doing this for his mother, and therefore any other church may as well be no church…
My tongue is bleeding and Drama Queen is the only one in the room. I could have said anything I wanted. She is fully versed on my opinions of Roe v. Wade and has formed opinions of her own. My number one opinion is that there is and should remain a separation between church and state which would behoove priests to refrain from bellowing political diatribes during their services. I don’t want my politicians preaching, nor my priests and pastors practicing politics……is that really such a fine line to draw?? I was thinking it was the kind drawn with those giant old pencils we used back in first grade, remember the big fat pencils your tiny little fingers couldn’t even grip???
I love the idea of exposing Mr. Monk to some other religions. However, I doubt that is an option, given the your husband’s commitment to raise them Catholic. (I’m not laughing) (no, I am not) (stop cursing at me, this is not a smirk, I am practicing my Elvis impersonation)
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*Grin*
I think he’s doing this for his mother. It’s like this idea that just get the kids through to confirmation, then my work is done here. And because his mother is involved in this equation, I am staying out of this.
Reformed Catholic here. Married a reformed Catholic. Raising our kids to be open minded and without a religious framework.
A story and a point: my 95-year-old decided after her husband died that there were too many things in Catholicism that she didn’t agree with. Key amongst them, the ban on birth control, she felt, was making the poor even poorer. The policy on divorce, she felt, was ludicrous. And the stance on homosexuality, she felt, was abhorrent. So she went shopping for a new religion. Took a year. And told us at the end that all religions are pretty much the same, just as inconsistent and wrong-headed, just as supportive and communal. She decided to stick with what she was raised, for simplicity’s sake.
The announcement in church about a law is when churches should lose tax-exempt status. The staying out of government bit needs to be followed just as the government out of religion ought be.
I think most grown-ups are able to take what they agree and ignore what they disagree. Perhaps I am feeling the disconnect and seeing the hypocrisy a bit too sharply being an outsider, an observer.
When I suggested going to Mass the next week, Mr. Monk was not so keen any more because, too be honest, Mass can be quite boring…
How sweet your young one wants to embrace his faith! When I was a kid, I remember my Mom tensing up next to me in the pew when the occasional substitute priest would start preaching an abortion monologue, which to my then innocent ears sounded more like political rhetoric. My brain kind of screamed what this this have to do with religion?
Eventually I sorted though much this Catholic quagmire and tried to take the comforting aspects of the faith and leave what I thought was absurd in the rear view mirror. I think the best thing my parents taught me was to be kind, live a good life, and remember God is always with you, it doesn’t have to be in a church.
Sounds like your son is on that track already!
Thank you. I hope so. This was never an issue with my oldest because everything just sort of flew over his head, rolled off his back (He’s a smart kid but he’s just not introspective and observant and inquisitive like his younger brother)
Because my youngest asks a lot of questions, and because I do not wish to treat children like idiots, I tend to overexplain, and perhaps that’s where I should correct my approach.
Okay, just realized my previous comment may have been a little preachy. No pun intended. And not the tone I intended, either.
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No worries. I know where you are coming from.
I will refrain from ranting about my views on the religious right and the political pulpit. But I loooove me some controversy! Your little boy sounds precious. Here is my take on what he may/may not be going through: I think it is normal for him to want to FEEL Catholicism. To belong to it. He is young. Searching for meaning in the world. Needing acceptance. Religion can give him that. And then, he learns that you will go to hell if you do not believe. And so he is afraid for him Mommy. He want’s you to be in the club. Will he still be into it as he gets older? Maybe. Maybe not. Don’t be too hard on yourself. Lots of couples have mixed religious views. Maybe you can talk with your son about his views and experiences with the whole catholic thing. Let him know that if he is into it 100%, that’s ok. But if deep down he only feels connected to or inspired by part of what he learns on church, that’s ok, too.
The Sweetest recently posted…Easy Family Recipes- Sloppy Joes
Yeah perhaps it was not a good joke for me to tell that I’ll be coming back as whatever when they are in heaven with daddy…
I’ve never hidden the fact that I’m a Christian. I won’t spew any rhetoric about what is right or wrong, according to what I believe. Maybe I’m not “Christian” enough because I believe people have a right to their opinion, whether I agree with it or not. You are brave. You indeed touched on a sensitive issue here. ‘Nuff respect. And, no, I’m not going anywhere.
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Thank you so much. This means a lot to me.
I’m taking deep breaths here. (Where are my blood pressure pills?!)
I’m so glad Nance put her psychotherapist hat on with her comment. I’ll put on my just plain psycho hat and tell you I agree with her. You wouldn’t want Mr. Monk to watch only Fox News; isn’t it the same with religious doctrine? Sad that you’re having to not only send your child to learn about a religion you don’t believe in, but now you’re having to participate in it, too. (Heck, isn’t there an Episcopal or Lutheran School around there somewhere??)
I hope you talk to him, not just about what you don’t believe, but what you do. That’s one special kid you have there, but I’m repeating myself. Again.
By the way, did I ever recommend The Faith Club to you? Very interesting book. I think you’d like it.
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I checked out The Faith Club online and yes it would be an interesting book to read. I’ll see whether I can get back to the swing of reading things on paper…
Thank you too for the support and a good talking-to. I don’t know. This is just so much more complicated than I had expected. AND when I become too preachy, I am worried I am push him into a little Republican…
it’s really clear the only solution is to send Monk to live with me. ( with his favorite coat/toy/food). To be a real catholic you must partake in Fat Tuesday which directly proceeds Ash Wednesday, and really NO ONE does fat tuesday right like my Gulf Coast Catholics. You have probably heard of it. MARDI GRAS ! Also you will need to come, why? Because I love you.
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Well, I guess I do need to sacrifice myself and bring him to visit you for Mardi Gras then! All in the name of proper Catholic education! LOL
Love you back sweetie
Great post! I was dragged every Sunday, kicking and screaming, to Presbyterian Church (= “Christian Lite”), but it never felt right to me. At 12 years old my mother finally conceded defeat. It took another 20 years before I discovered Eastern philosophies. I love the non-duality, non-judgment, oneness concept.
I’m so freaked out by the thought of Roe v Wade being overturned someday, as it is currently being eroded one little corner at a time. As much of the public crier he is, I figured John Boehner to be too sensitive to introduce something like the “No Taxpayer Funding for Abortion Act”. What a dick. (Don’t you just love my eloquence? LOL)
And ditto what Nance said.
Kernut the Blond recently posted…Intimidated by The Adult Toy Store
I DO love your eloquence. 🙂 I saw this the other day and I almost posted it here:
http://priyankakapoor.tumblr.com/post/86004506/77-anti-abortion-leaders-are-men-100-of-them
it’s this kind of writing that keeps me coming here: thought-provoking, humorous, and honest. i’m so glad you posted this.
anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-women in leadership/power, and covering up centuries of pedophelia, what is morally right here? i fully support your decision to stay away, and think you need to stand up for what you believe in.
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Thank you baby for being asskicking and for being on my side!
Not to make light of this serious situation, but I did have to laugh a little bit. Kids are SO good at finding the thing that will make you feel extremely guilty AND make you look bad in front of the priest. I taught CCD for 10 years and I can’t tell you the number of times I had kids saying the same thing – they wanted to go to mass but their parents couldn’t get up in time, had too much to drink the night before, you name it. They also told tales during any discussion of the 10 commandments. I knew which moms were sleeping with their boyfriends, which ones were cheating on their taxes . . .
My kids all went through a very religious phase; I think that happens with a lot of kids.
Doesn’t it just amaze you how difficult parenting is?
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Thank goodness I am not sleeping with other men!
Hi Lin:
I am totally with you in your dilemma…my dad is a former Methodist minister, but I haven’t gone to church (except for weddings and funerals), since junior high (my aunts, uncles and cousins are all churchgoers). I have my own beliefs, but people who spout religion make me very uncomfortable…my religion is my business! Jim’s parents are regular churchgoers, but he is not. We both consider ourselves “good people”, who go out of our way to help others (I believe in karma too!). We have agreed to let our children make their own decisions about religion when they are old enough to do so (my grown daughter is agnostic).
I suspect that you do this anyway, but my advice is to be as honest as you can with your kids…if there’s something the church is telling them that you don’t agree with, tell them!
Good luck!
Hugs,
Wendy
I wanted to but there is the fact that I am in an interfaith marriage… it is tricky in reaching a balance where you are not offending your spouse…
My kids go to a Jewish Day school where they are taught to judge people based upon their actions. They don’t get indoctrinated with rhetoric about one faith being better than another or anything of that sort.
Nor do they hear that at home. Yet, there is no way to avoid some of this because all of the students are Jewish. We have had discussions about who can attend (anyone can) and why it is a Jewish school.
No matter what I say they still get the sense that it is better to be Jewish. Part of the challenge here is that children aren’t necessarily sophisticated enough to see the shades of gray in life, nuance is often lost on them.
I think that this just one of those things we work through.
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I hear you. Thank you for letting me know that I am not alone in this.
I am a million, trillion, cazillion per cent with you on this one. My lifestyle puts me right up there with the best of sinners but I am a firm believer in Karma and honestly feel that so long as I treat people as I wish them to treat me then all will be OK. I don’t have the added difficulty of trying to instill morals, religious views or anything else into children – I can imagine it must be very hard… Never worry about what you write on your blog – it is true for you and that’s what we are all here for. You have every right to express your opinions and to me it sounds like you are a mother that most kids would wish for.
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My sweet sweet Bacon-scented lady-loving lady, thank you and I have hots for you online.
Let’s hope our online dating is more successful than my last – You do have teeth, right?!!
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You don’t mind fake ones do you?
Did I read you Venn diagram right? There is such a thing as an “authentic Jesus” sign? I have room right next to my garden gnome for such a bold proclamation except there needs to be a Fabioliscious photo of windswept rock me sexy Jesus in the background. Only authentic Jesus beats butter touchdown Jesus.
Yup. There have been those signs all around our area and I got quite indignant for the other Christians because obviously 1) they had been duped by a “fake” Jesus or 2) they have been insulted by this sign.
An example here: http://flic.kr/p/5TyTnS
WTF!
OK, no. This one deserves a full on “What. The. Fuck.” Sorry, pardon my French.
Seeing a sign for anything proclaiming itself to be “Authentic” is usually a red flag. But Jesus? I’m a Christian, and a Catholic, who has been all over the map spiritually, but if I know one thing in my heart it is this. The “real” J-man would be fuckin’ pissed if he saw one of those signs.
Now “Organic Jesus” is a totally different story…
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Organic Jesus? Is that similar to soy milk? Or grass fed beef? I’m getting a headache……or I am being stricken……damnit……
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All the fire, brimstone & beatings from my day bred cruelty, intolerance and in my case insanity. These days it’s a kinder gentler catholic church but I still remain at a safe distance.
According to the nuns, priests and brothers that taught us, our blackened rotting souls were so far gone that not even the most lethal disinfectant on the toughest metal wire brush could scrub us clean. So to prove them right we super glued sisters favorite pencil holder to the black board and climbed out the open windows of our first floor classroom when she had her back turned. You should have seen us run when we hit the ground!!
Oh my goodness. This is at the same time horrifying and exhilarating at the same time. I bet there are tons of stories you could tell us the uninitiated. My ears are perked.
I did sign up for this but then I’m super open minded and a follow-up conversation with Mrs. G. is in order.
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Yeah, I think so too. Oy.
Did I say I wouldn’t advise? Oh, brother.
Nance recently posted…Smalltime Soliloquy
LOL. Advise away m’lady!
” I was worried about losing readership. In the end though, I have got to do what feels right by me and I apologize if when you get to the end you are like, WTF? I did not sign up for this!”
This is exactly the sort of discussion I sign up for. I won’t advise, but I’m sure you’ve guessed that this is not the last time you will face confusion triggered by your sweet child’s sincerity and literality. There will be teachers he’ll feel completely compelled to please, peers who have too much influence over him, and circumstances that can’t be anticipated.
IMHO, your fear that you might not be doing right by your kids threatens to blind you to the real need: Mr. Monk needs to hear from the Number One Authority (you) that not everyone believes the same way and there are many of the very nicest kinds of people who aren’t believers in any particular faith–including teachers and policemen, judges and even leaders of this country. Leaders of other big and important countries have completely different beliefs, even, from ours.
Mrs. G. was very kind and entirely humane, but she doesn’t run the parish. She probably should. Follow your own best instinctive mother-wisdom to help prepare your boys to live in a very heterogeneous and complicated world.
Nance recently posted…Smalltime Soliloquy
Nance, thank you so much. I really appreciate what you said here, an honest AND more importantly, actionable, opinion. Thank you!
Bless your heart! I grew up with an insanely conservative mother–very right wing, very religious, very everything I’ve come to abhor. However, I’m fortunate that my mother has accepted that I’m a lesbian and embraces my partner and I as whole-heartedly as someone of her convictions can–which is–way, way more than I would have dreamed possible. So sometimes these folks can surprise us.
I can’t imagine you could lose readers from such an honest post. You write the way you raise your children–with conviction. Congratulations for taking a stand and saying what you believe is true!
I love everything about this post!
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Thank you so much for the encouragement!
Sounds like you need to write Mrs. G back. I’m curious to hear her response. And I could spew my abortion opinions for the next 7000 characters but that’s like preaching to the converted…
See how I used a religious reference there? Didya like that?
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I LOVE it and I can write 7000 and more about how I love you.